In the ninth episode of our new podcast “Voices In Payments” our host, Diederik Klopper discusses the Buy Now Pay Later landscape and what the future of payments will look like with wilco Slabbekoorn, VP of International Sales at AfterPay - Arvato Financial Solutions.
Afterpay is a payment-after-delivery service developed by Arvato Financial Solutions, enabling businesses to offer their customers a convenient way of paying. Under the umbrella of payment-after-delivery, AfterPay offers both regular invoice products as part payment options, complemented by a direct debit option.
Listen to the podcast to find out:
If you’re curious to find out more about how Afterpay's Innovative payment-after-delivery service enables businesses to offer their customers a convenient way of paying, please reach out to Wilco Slabbekoorn for a conversation.
About PaymentGenes’s “Voices In Payments” – The Future of Payments podcast:
The “Voices in Payments” Podcast, is an initiative launched by PaymentGenes to positively impact the payments community, by educating and connecting the market with vertical-specific industry expertise.
PaymentGenes Empowers Business growth by providing expertise-driven Recruitment, Contracting, Business Strategy Consult, and Data Strategy Services. These services all resolve and intersect around payments. Learn more about how we can help your business here.
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Hi everybody. Welcome to the Paymentgenes podcast series. Voices in payments today, I'm joined by Wilco Slabbekoorn and he is the VP international sales from Afterpay after pays to buy. Now pay later solution from Arvato better, man. With Wilco, we'll talk all about the rise of buy now pay later solution and the developments in this industry. Welcome to the show.
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00:31
Thank you very much. I'm looking forward to this conversation.
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00:35
Am I, so am I, I feel called to start the conversation, like I always do. I'm always interested to learn how people get involved in payments. Nobody woke up one day and said, I'm going to be payment expert. How did you stumble into payments?
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00:48
Yeah, so I started in a, in it business and then, had ms. Short let's say interim period in real estate. After that I thought e-commerce is a very interesting industry. What is then a super important component of that specific industry that's payments. I started to be really interested in that global picture of the paper industry. Now we're almost one and a half decades later.
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01:20
What would then the first touch points that you have working in the payment industry and what took you by surprise?
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01:26
Yeah, I still, I, I started a long time ago at a company called Experian where were very much focused on everything which was related to credit risk, in an online environment. What took me by surprise is the, actually the importance at that already for payments, but also the growth in terms of all different kinds of payment types. And also the importance of payments. When you look at international way of working and borderless business, I think that is the most important thing. A lot of, a lot of payments companies are super internationally focused.
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02:06
Yes, exactly. Of course he talks about development and international focus to things that have been highly impacted. Of course, I think as well, the developments offer or pave the way for buy now pay later solutions. What are some of the developments in that area that you've seen over the last minutes?
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02:23
In the past seven months, obviously we've seen a dramatic change. First a lot of countries went into lockdown. People couldn't go in store and started to buy a lot of stuff, services, products, et cetera. Online groceries is obviously a very prevalent, but also medical products, children, toys, cleaning food and beverage, et cetera. Now if you look at that enormous shift, we've also seen an enormous pickup in the buy. Now pay later concept and the payment types on a global level, you see a lot of strong players in us, in Europe, as well as in Asia. That context is also because, young people, but also people who want to control their cashflow more are more appealed to a buy now pay later concept than, then for example, paying with a credit card.
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03:21
Also the installment, concept, which comes with buy now pay later is also very interesting to, for example, buy furniture or a bit more expensive product where you can, more or less spread your payments. Very interesting, also new consumer groups, which we touched on behalf of our consumers. I think very interesting. If you look at all these different categories or sectors where we seem that huge increase, then, you see that, yeah, especially the buy now pay later, payment product has been growing enormously in the checkout. For us very interesting times and also very interesting times ahead, right. Because yeah, we're still, we're probably still in this situation for, yeah, for the foreseeable future.
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04:18
Perhaps to clarify for the audience that there's a difference between buy now pay later and payment installments, however, they are very complimentary to each other. Do you feel that there is a future for solitary by an upper ledger solution or a payment installments? Or do you think they should go forward, always be used in collaboration with each other?
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04:39
That's an interesting question because, around installments there's a lot of in general, there's a lot of legislation around buying later,
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04:50
Also a lot more complicated the nerve.
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04:52
Yeah, exactly. Indians installments also is a very complex concept as such. A lot of large players, combine the two and you see also all different kinds of initiatives popping up, locally, or more regionally. One of my former colleagues, has a very interesting concept now, which he started in the, in Asia hula, which is a very interesting concept also installments and also in store, you see a lot of new initiatives from Australia and New Zealand popping in. Obviously we are a very large player in Europe together with others, client minds, mother players in the market. It depends on also the size and also the willingness for these companies to, go into these also complex, let's say legislation processes. So it depends a little bit.
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05:49
Yeah, exactly. You mentioned, of course the development did a lot of merchants have to shift their brick and mortar presence to online. Of course for consumers, it also has some consequences not being able to go to the high streets, but buying online, did we as well, she is shift in what people are buying online versus what they normally buy.
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06:10
Yeah, that's an, it's an interesting question. We have a, an insights team at, Arvato. The Afterpay insights team and that team is more or less surveying a lot of the consumers of our, customers basically. What you see happening is that people are now already preparing for their holiday season, right? So they expect, to buy a lot online, first of all, but it's also all in the ARL conference, CLO thing and everything which is related to comfort at home, where did that route yourself or whether that's a comfort clothes thing or whether that is related to a lot of other stuff.
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06:51
If you then look at the holiday season, which normally starts fairly early also, we see now that a lot of consumers, we surveyed, think that for example, around black Friday, there will be a very interesting, do you estimate for their Christmas shopping, et cetera. If you look at, the impact of not being able to buy your Christmas shopping or your dresses or your suits to whatever in store anymore, imagine what that will, have impact on the supply chain, right. All these webs with all their logistics, distribution, et cetera. I'm very interested to see how that will evolve in the next weeks months.
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07:39
Yeah, exactly. I can also imagine that there's a massive rise in sweat bands being ordered a nice crisp shirts so that people can still look the parts when they're in the zoom or hangout or Skype meeting.
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07:51
Yeah, I am. I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure about that. And the interesting areas when you look at, and that is also blended into your previous question, what we've seen in the past seven months, there are also companies who didn't really have an online strategy yet, right? If you look at certain retailers, traditional retailers, or a fast fashion mass retailers, a great example is prime Mark. In that perspective, they didn't really have an aligned strategy. In the past months, early in the COVID situation, when they had to shut down all of their stores in most of the markets where they are active, they really didn't have any turnover. They didn't have an online strategy. What you see happening, in a lot of, companies now in retail specifically, is that they put a lot of effort in their e-com channels.
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08:52
If you look at the large chains, desire as the H and M's et cetera, they closed down their physical stores or a lot of physical stores, and they invest a lot in their econ channels.
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09:03
Yeah. What are some of the questions that these more traditional brick and mortar stores should be asking their payment partners have better being a PSP or alternative payment method? when they're men think about shifting their, in store presence to online.
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09:18
Yeah. It's important, first of all, to, know your consumer group, right? So the consumer profile, the social demographic profile of your consumer. You need to understand per market per country, basically how people want to pay what's the most prevalent payment type in a market. You need to, discuss a strategy with your payment services provider, which payment type next to your credit card it's in your PayPal, et cetera, is then important for your specific, for your consumer group. I think that is very important and there are a lot of very good reports available. We also have a lot of information available, which we share with our customers around what are prevalent payment types per market per consumer group think. Yeah exactly.
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10:14
The insights, after better than now, there's a lot of information available, but a lot of providers have very good view on what is important per market when it comes to the payment types and by not by later as such or the installments concept is becoming more and more important.
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10:32
Yeah. Of course the usage of, payment methods has always varied from region to region a us VP international seals. What are some of the differences that you see within your portfolio ranging from country to country?
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10:46
Yeah. Obviously we have the credit card schemes, which are there already for a long time, and they have been for decades going through all of their organization on international level, when you are an alternative payment methods provider, then there only a few with a very global footprint I'm talking, Babybel, I'm talking a few others in that area. I think that, some very strong players now in the alternative payment methods environment are also growing more. Let's say global client is a great example. We are growing, internationally a lot. We see some others popping up, but it's also, you need to have, I would say, you need to be very determined and also focused, to provide your customers also with that international reach. That is, that costs a lot of investment.
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11:48
There's a lot of legal work around it to discuss with the local financial authorities, cetera, but it's very exciting. I think that's probably also something you see in the market. There's also a lot of consolidation going on.
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12:02
That's exactly where I was aiming at. Of course, ed did reasons, you mentioned RSV reasons for companies to want to collaborate or want to acquire or merge. That's a moment there are a few very strong players in the field. Do you think that there's still room for a new entrance? Do you think that the current large companies that are offering these services will fight it out and only one can end up on top or perhaps multiple, or what are your thoughts on that?
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12:28
That there will always be new initiatives that's for sure. Recently a few days ago, there was the announcement that former agenda people are now starting up a new piece also to more or less introduced a new flexible way of payment orchestration. You see a lot of these types of very interesting, fast growing companies who create flexibility and agility and also help their merchants with, the optimum situation between cost, risk and performance. I think that is something we will see in the coming years, that will, that will be a lot of innovation in that area. When you specifically look at the payment types and also the large PSPS or the large acquirers, I think, volume and also size will be, very important in order to also provide services for very large global companies.
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13:30
And, that's what I've learned in my, in my past career, also with Worldpay, for example, if you want to do business with very large organizations, you need to also have scale and trust, et cetera. I, I think that we will see, quite some consolidation in Europe with some European players who will potentially merge two very large, European dominant players. We also see, and that's the interesting area where we are currently in when it comes to buy. Now pay later a lot of collaborations between, those buy now pay later companies and traditional banks, right. You see more and more of these collaborations whereby, the buy now pay later companies one to also provide banking services, for example. A lot of innovation, a lot of collaboration, strategic partnerships, et cetera, coming our way.
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14:32
Yeah. Once again, touching shortly, but the upcoming months, of course had a lot of change, a lot less traffic in store, but lot more online, of course, that will pose some logistical challenges as well. Do you see that merchants are now taking a different approach to preparing for the coming months? Or do you see that's pretty much the same mistake?
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14:55
I, I think that, if merchants, especially in retail would have a crystal ball that will a ball that would help them a lot with their preparation. I think it will be very difficult to understand when exactly people are going to buy that Christmas shopping, et cetera. We've seen already preparations with the, with a lot of our customers, very early, in summer in order to prepare and also anticipate and look at data. That's also why we've done this insights project whereby we try to, project and anticipate, what is coming, for those merchants, for us retailers.
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15:41
I think that is super important to anticipate already super early, have the right payment mix, have the right products, in stock also to understand, what promotions you need to do in order to, be relevant still, ? And, I think, yeah, the process for our customers started very early this year already.
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16:06
Yeah, exactly. Of course not up, we know that there's a huge bike coming and we're pretty much confident that the logistical parties cannot deliver, all the packages in time that it also makes sense perhaps to spread it out a bit more evenly to perhaps start with some of the deals already bit sooner, should, if you can flatten the curve. Of course, we've used that in different contexts, but as well for this too, to relieve some of the stress on the logistical part.
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16:33
Yeah. We think that, also based on that, on the insights, project, we do, we see that more and more consumers just want to buy early because of the fact that they want to make sure that they have everything in house before all the holiday stuff starts. Right. They understand also that all these logistical companies struggle with the bringing products or services on time. I think, the rat race for first of all, consumers, and also what they buy and when they buy has started very early this year. I think that there will be, a lot of challenges in the entire e-commerce, value chain because of the fact that imagine that normally you would walk through a high speed, buy your stuff in one or two or three or four days, whatever. Now now most of that will be done online.
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17:34
Imagine what that will have in terms of impact.
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17:36
Yeah, exactly. In terms of impact, of course, two of the main advantages that buy now pay later solutions offer is on the one hand, you can see, feel, try out the goods before you actually have to buy them. The second one is cash management system, perhaps this month is a bit tight and that et cetera is coming in quite quickly. You want to spread out the load there, but that also has the potential to offer serious challenges for people if they lose their employment. Of course the employment is more uncertain in these difficult times. How do you deal with dose challenges as Afterpay as a solution?
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18:19
Yeah. That's actually fairly a fairly simple, because we talk a lot with our merchants in order to understand what consumers day also, would like to, provide these payment services to. That means basically we do a lot of credit checks in control on consumers to see, whether people, indeed, can use those types of products. And, and therefore it's a continuous process between the merchant and us, and also consumers in order to create that optimum situation. Next to that, within our group of companies where we're part of also to see about embarrassment group, we have a lot of knowledge on everything which is related to a collection and learning processes, et cetera. We can, we strive that consumers are in very good hands with us.
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19:17
That also means that, yeah, that we try to provide the best possible they, by not by like the surface to get away with our merchants, for their consumers.
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19:27
Yeah, exactly. It's, of course, it's very important that you only provide credit to those who can actually handle it because it's easy to run into trouble there. Of course the collection part to get it with off the page, a very strong combination in that fact.
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19:40
Yeah, that's a neat, and that's also why a lot of the larger international companies now move to us, they started with other, by not by later companies, they've ran into uncertainty or maybe a lot of consumer groups, which were not enormously credible. For example, we have different products. We're also not really into, this business for two to acquire consumers or something like that. We're there for merchants. We help merchants grow, and therefore provide these types of services, but not with the end goal to, acquire consumer data or have access to these consumers to up and cross sell banking services or whatever credit cards. That's not the way we do our business, right? So we are a bit of a different animal in that perspective. Yes.
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20:38
Trust is a very important aspect there. Of course, if I'm a consumer and you're using a buy now pay later solution on the website and I've run into trouble, then it doesn't only look bad on the binomial distribution, but also on the website for Mitchum shopping. So there's a huge potential loss there.
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20:57
To, to, and therefore, I think also when you look at, the way we present these types of payment types, then that's a very thorough test to get it with our merchants, how to position it, how to also give information around the buy now pay later concept or installments, et cetera. Again, and that's where we started this conversation. It's extremely popular. It's fast growing, it's growing also in line, of course, with enormous acceleration and an explosion in e-commerce transactions or purchases. For us, it will be a very exciting time, in the course of the next weeks, months, maybe years, even. So.
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21:41
Another love of snip for you in the coming weeks,
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21:43
We'll know about that.
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21:45
She as well, does a lot more merchants are approaching you in the preparations for the months to come, or is it still pretty much the same as it's always been?
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21:53
Merchants who, already had a buy now pay later services with us, for example, our, yeah, of course, Fastly growing the number of transactions. That means they need additional support and advice. That's one and two, companies who currently lack a buy now pay like the solution in their checkouts are urgently trying to include it. That means basically that there's also a lot of, merchants in our, in our, let's say ecosystem who wants to go live very fast with the new pay later solution. Therefore for us, it's very good that we have this, network of strategic partners. A lot of PSPS where we closely work with why we have connections to who then can give those merchants access to our payment types. And I think that is super important.
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22:52
We have very good relationships with that, again, with back crew, with complete top, with a lot of these PSPS in order to also have the connectivity right. In order to provide those services also Swift merchants. Yeah.
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23:10
Yeah. Of course for the smaller merchant said, it's a lot of hassle to integrate with all the different payment methods that are out there, but more specifically for the weld established brands that are, have a lot of traffic, then it makes more sense to integrate directly with a buying a pledge solution like Afterpay.
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23:25
Yeah. Yeah. They're quite some players want to, who want to integrate directly on our platforms. And then obviously you need to, yeah. You need to project plan that and make sure that the integration has been dealt with then on a direct basis without a PSP in between. Yeah, those projects are obviously a longer term. If a merchant would come to us without actually I buy an app later and I want to go direct and then to have obviously the resources available, et cetera, or to build that in. Yeah.
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24:00
Looking at the current situation we are in, of course COVID had great effects what's happening online, but as well in our daily life daily routines, work-wise it has a lot of impact. For instance, I know that you traveled a lot for work. How do you currently structure your day and how is that different from a few seven, eight months ago?
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24:19
Yeah. If you look at, six, seven months ago, compared today, then for me personally, a lot has changed. I was in the traveling four or five days a week, internationally. Now I'm, already from Mark John working from home, that means that you need to, first of all, yeah, coach and manage your team in a different way. And my team is, yeah. All over Europe, basically. That requires a different way of leadership. That's one, two, I think it's very important to also, spend a lot of time and attention on your merchants.
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24:59
Yeah, continuously also give them attention and try to also, give them access to your calendar, basically, because it's fairly easy to, be, from early in the morning until end of the day in all different kinds of video conferences, but it's also important to allocate your time different and also create some room for some ad hoc conversations or some time you spend on your merchants just on a personal level. Right. I think that is super Wharton to, into blending into your day, that you also have time to reach out to your network and make sure that you spent some attention on the, on those guys because otherwise before, you're only producing and going from video conference to video conference without really making,
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25:55
Having a personal touch. We had exactly the same thing at Bay meetings, of course had recruitment and consulting services were not on the top priority list of our clients for back in March when COVID hit. We still wanted to have the touch points with our clients. Yeah, how do you do that? We don't want to call and say, Hey, listen, do you have any positions for me to feel? But yeah, in that sense, we took a different approach and never really wanted to share the expertise that we have for instance, with regards to interviewing people through digital channels. As well as just giving them updates of what's happening in the industry, how to best make use of the possibilities that are there and having those touch points without actually trying to sell something. I think that has worked really well.
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26:41
For us. Yeah. And, and I think, also in these times, it's not always about, trying to only sell your products. Right. We know that one of our merchants and partners, quite to serious challenges with these times. I think that, sometimes just normal attention or indeed those insights or the information we provide or sometimes just connecting people to each other, is building more long-term strategic partnerships and relationships than just a very one dimensionally trying to sell something to them.
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27:25
Yeah, exactly. I think one of the key takeaways for me is that you can have a lot more points of contact, where you are not actively trying to sell, but just remaining the relationship, keeping in touch. Now that we should have more often, it's not only in-person, but as well on the phone, just give each other a call and then check in.
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27:48
Yeah, yeah. On the other hand also very interesting to see in the future, the, let's say the travel plans I had, and if I now think about how the future will look, then probably all internal international meetings. Yeah. Most of them, I would probably do as of, as today, like, so I will go to our offices obviously, but I will probably limit my travel to maybe go into merchants once in awhile going to our offices. I think that, the way people will work is obviously far more working from home. I think offices will change in terms of setup. I think also, in the way people will travel on an international level. I think that will dramatically change.
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28:45
Also the way you communicate with your customers global dramatically change, and the same goes for a lot of very large fashion retailers, companies trading, in e-com, w we haven't touched of course, on travel airlines, et cetera. That's also not, those sectors we're not in, from an app perspective. But, but those types of sectors have been of course hit extremely hard, so we'll see a lot of changes. Also in the mobility area, we will release a mobility blog in the very near future, because we are also very active with the Avarto business in everything which is related to sharing concepts, mobility, parking, et cetera. In the near future, we will also this mobility blog and do quite a lot on all these different kinds of events, and I think that's also super important to yeah.
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29:52
Together with your network or your ecosystem, invent new ways of communication meetings, the way you trade with each other, think about how consumers want to buy products and services. I think that's very important.
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30:11
Yeah, exactly. You need to hit it on the head there, but of course there's a lot of changes in the e-commerce landscape that will as well stay post COVID. Of course, people are now being forced to shop online and find out about the great convenience that it can provide that in my eyes will not automatically switch back to buy in store when the possibility is there again. I think we will see a lot of these developments, have a very long lasting effect in the industry.
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30:42
Yeah, I think, the, let's say the digital acceleration in the past seven, eight months has been going so extremely fast, normally that will probably take five years or something, and the tumors also the bit elderly people and the people, maybe the baby booming, target group. I think those types of people, those types of persons have really, got to learn the way they could also, buy services of products online indeed. I think they won't shift back that won't that, and that growth online, you see all different kinds of very large organizations, also investing a lot in their online channels that will remain, that will grow aggressively it's yeah, that's just stay basically.
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31:44
Yes. Statistically has been predominantly female that have been doing the online shopping, but as well, I think now most of the men that are sitting at home, discovering the ease of online shopping. We'll definitely keep doing that in the years to come.
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31:58
Sure. Yeah. So, so you see all different kinds of, growth in different areas, whether that's gender or age, et cetera, but yeah. Let let's be honest people now, yeah, they just get used to buying a line with also the ease of how that service is being delivered to the North step. I think that will stay and they will grow aggressively. Also the younger generation is really used to it, right? They, that they continuously scroll on their phones and look for all different kinds. They they used to get already.
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32:35
I think most of the companies, we also talk to are aggressively rolling out all different kinds of omni-channel type of strategies, because they really want to make sure that now that online presence is also in a similar way as they have their stores and the stores, which will use their experience throughout the exactly. That will be more and more important in the foreseeable future. We see a lot of companies in our ecosystem, either in cosmetics or in fashion or in other, do it yourself or sports whereby there's a lot of focus on omni-channel.
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33:13
With those different segments, do you see a difference in what kind of products people are buying online with buy now pay later solution? Are there different product categories that are, that really surprise you with the rise of buy now pay later as a payment method?
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33:29
Not necessarily, that we saw a different product groups, where buy now pay later was more prevalent or something, but we just saw an enormous increase also because of the fact that I think people are not able to go to restaurants or bars just have more spending power at that time, but once those start to control their spending more, I think, so it's a combination of factors. We, we've also seen a lot of people, buying, all different kinds of products because they had to stay at home. Right. Now in the Netherlands, but all the countries around us. Yeah. Will we potentially look at semi lockdowns or lockdowns again, and then yeah. If you have your children are around you or your parents or whatever you want to work out there are so many products or service you want to yeah.
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34:28
A desk, decent chair to work on an additional monitor, all those things.
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34:33
Yeah. Yeah exactly. Also very simple things like, cleaning materials or a food beverage, right. Or or medical, stuff. So a lot of our merchants in more in the pharmaceutical area or the area of cosmetics, specifically pharmacy, et cetera, where they see a huge fight because people wanted, yeah. They they just wanted to have all those types of products, but then couldn't go to the stores. Right. So, very important area also.
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35:10
Yes. Looking at some sectors that perhaps are not that suitable to buy an operator. Of course we shortly touched upon travel. Do you think there are other product groups that are becoming more available to, or more logical for buying populated solutions? Or do you think that the sectors that we're currently in that's where our key focus should be?
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35:31
What we, what we do, also a lot is, we do a lot of invoicing type of, services. We combine all different kinds of purchases or different activities. We combine that in one monthly invoice. You see that, especially mobility is very interesting in that area, whereby not pay late as such is, so that's more, collecting all different kinds of purchases or services into one invoice. That's important. Mobility is one clearly, what do we see out? so we see, yeah, as we already stated, also some subscription type of models where we operate a lot with large companies, either in the media industry or in television type of services, movie, type of, organizations, et cetera. More and more of these types of subscription services are also those types of things. Right.
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36:36
And, and those developments are of course, very interesting. Looking ahead in the years to come, of course there's a lot of uncertainty, but do you feel comfortable enough in saying, okay, these are some of the developments that we will see, or do you mind hazarding a guess?
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36:52
It's very uncertain, because, yeah, what we currently look at also with all different kinds of experts in our area of business, but also in all different kinds of other areas is, what obviously will happen per country, because COVID will be approached in all different kinds of countries in different ways with lockdowns and with all different kinds of regulations. I think for the foreseeable future, I don't know how long this will take, but, I think the way people interact will be heavily impact for the next one after two years. What that will mean for economies for financial situations for consumers and what consumer groups will be impacted most, what that will mean for, employment. I I have an idea around that. Of course, I think we're, I think we're heading towards, economic, difficult times.
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38:06
And, but that the interesting thing is that doesn't necessarily hit the e-commerce industry. I think, w we will, of course see a decline in a lot of, economic parts in the, in countries, for sure. In-store very important, but I think, and people will probably not buy very expensive new cars. The automotive industry will be highly impacted in a lot of other areas, but I think fashion and consumer goods as such, we'll be bought online a lot. I think in our industry, and especially then also the payments part, we will see a significant growth in the foreseeable future, but yeah, what will happen around COVID? yeah, that's of course a very difficult question. I don't think even prime ministers per country have very clear view on that, right? Yeah,
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39:06
Exactly. Indeed people will continue to buy things online, and that will definitely not change. I think for that, by an operator, Penn provides them with the tools to control their spending a bit more accurately. In that sense, I think they're more spending a huge market potential for buying a politer challenging terms or have interesting time.
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39:29
Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely agree with you. Also that, the buy now pay later concept is, more or less an extension of the customer journey because you can keep, in control with your consumers, via an app or via a message via email with all different kinds of product images. Here are images, which you can share with your consumers post-purchase, which is different than if you use, for example, a credit card, or when you use other payment products. The marketing component within buying out pay later, to continuously try to improve and increase loyalty. That is a, that is one of the most important aspects of that buy now Pilate concept.
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40:20
I think overall, if we summarize the past, the past conversation, we just had, I think we're in a very interesting, area of payments and the specifically e-commerce we see that there's a lot of, consolidation and also, borderless business, which we are heading towards. Yeah, again, for us, we're in a very interesting position as after Bay from Avarto Bertelsmann, due to the fact that we have already decades of experience in this field, and, also all insights and experience and knowledge. We also share with our merchants, hopefully will help, our entire ecosystem to, also manage the uncertainty in the near future.
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41:16
Well, I couldn't have said it better. I think that's a great summary of what we discussed vehicle. I want to thank you very much for taking the time to be with me on this podcast. I'm looking forward to talking to you again soon.
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41:28
Thank you very much. And have a nice day. The voices in payments.
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41:34
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